Early steel barrels were dovetailed in the manner of Damascus, but this method was superseded by the forging of the lumps as integral parts of the tube, in the now commonly used ‘chopper lump’ method employed on best guns. I have nearly 30 years of experience in steel product manufacturing, enough to understand the basic idea of materials and stresses. Agents New York. The hammers and triggers seem to work properly. I shoot my New Baker 10 gauge with 3-1/2 hulls cut down to 2-5/8". So - pards - my question is - should I attempt to sell it here on SASS Classified??? Graded 20g Foxes like this are hard-to-find! S p o n s o r e d. London Fine Twist Double Barrel Shotgun Barrel 30 Damascus Steel smooth bore. That shotgun survived many hundreds of 2 3/4" smokeless shotgun shells before I … There is one similar gun on GunBroker for $900 +. This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies. Damascus or “Damascus twist” barrels are older shotgun barrels that typically were made before 1900. All the loads are the same in amounts of 1F Goex and 1 oz shot. They were also tough to make, requiring a ton of time, manual labor, and skill. Copyright 2019 sassnet.com This week’s good guns: Powered by Gunsinternational.com ». They feel like a piece of paper they are so light. From this great looking Purdey to an incredible Fox and a nice 20g Browning Superlight. To get sure, visit an FFL license holder. By 1800, Pattern Welded (Twist, Crolle Damascus and Laminated Steel) barrels began to appear on sporting smoothbore muzzleloaders. I have a old Baker damascus 12 gauge sleeved to 20 gauge and it is a tank. I put a New Baker 10 gauge back into shooting condition and cleaned up the other as a "wall hanger" - having more problems than worth fixing. Here I'm firing a heavy load in the New Baker 10 gauge. Some are quite safe to shoot, with BLACK POWDER, many are unsafe at any speed. Or - used at all? Magna Flux or other non-destructive inspection is required. But shoot a Damascus barrel AT ALL? Parker PH grade 12 gauge built in 1892. NSCA super veteran. Smith and other respected names of the time. His response, "If it were mine, I'd shoot it with black powder and not worry about it.". OK - I know this topic has been kicked around before. Although the Baker shotgun is not one on GJs list, it is considered a quality American made gun - intertwined with Ithaca, L.C. See all of this week's guns now. Pre-Owned. After each etching, the barrel is boiled in plain water for about 5 minutes, and wet-carded with steel wool under water, until it looks right. Be aware that old Damascus or twist barrels are dangerous with modern smokeless powder shells. Belgian trade guns were all over the map in quality, but almost never the quality of a Remington or Parker or Greener, for example. Being someone else's gun, really a big NO. Consequently, they were by far the most expensive part of a gun. The welding and twisting together of steel and iron was not done. Note from jjk308: All Damascus, Laminated Steel and Skelp is twist. I have seen statements in old documents on the manufacture of damascus gun barrels… The butt plate appears … a fluid steel barrel is not necessarily stronger than a composition barrel! Many Damascus barrels were primarily designed for blackpowder shotshell loads. If it says "twist" or "laminated" or "damascus", then it is one of the types generally called damascus. The "wall hanger" is a newer Belgium made gun. « Meet Shawn Kinkelaar. Winchester made a shotgun barrel that was a thin steel tube wrapped with a mile long fiberglass thread. Damascus Or Twist Steel Shotgun Barrel to find out where to get the best deal on Damascus Or Twist Steel Shotgun Barrel . Sagerider. It will tell you if the ribs are joined or not. The long rods were then heated again and twisted like taffy, or a barber pole. By It is a side by side - double trigger, external hammers. Many Damascus barrels were primarily designed for blackpowder shotshell loads. I am guessing 30 inch barrel. And it's not advisable to shoot modern shells in them. And a couple of other companies. Damascus barrels are still being used in some circle for trap/skeet shooting. BONEYARD BILL, SASS #39,030, Is it worth about $500 bucks out of your pocket to REALLY get a professional answer? (He builds custom guns and proof fires them before he turns them over to the customer). The pics you see here are of a salesmen’s sample for a damascus-steel shotgun barrel. In the middle are people that have a lot of experience with these old guns and can make a good judgment of fitness for firing. The only way to tell is to proof it again. The top barrel is true Damascus, from a Purdey 10 gauge. The shotgun barrels of some of the older makes are often listed as being either Damascus, or fluid steel. Damascus Barrels - Barrel tubes built up by twisting alternate strips of iron and steel around a fixed rod (mandrel) and forge-welding them together in varying combinations according to the intended quality and the skill of the maker.The rod was withdrawn, the interior reamed and the exterior draw-filed until the finished tube was achieved. From this awesome 8g W.W. Greener to a great 16g Francotte and a 12g Parker Repro Steel Shot Special. So, that is not really addressing whether the OP wants to sell this gun off to someone else. My other damascus is a great hanger. The billets started out around 2 1/4" square and about 20" long. Here's your chance to get a deal on one of these classic American SxS shotguns. More than one has the opinion that proof loads may introduce a fracture that wasn't there before - thus giving a false sense of security. Yes, firing an overload to a tied down gun can produce stresses that might cause a failure later. There are a number of ways to "inspect" a Damascus gun for safety. My neighbors gun is WAY LOWER QUALITY than that one. Damascus or “Damascus twist” barrels are older shotgun barrels that typically were made before 1900.Iron and steel ribbons were twisted and welded together. I worked on two old doubles over the winter. There is a safe solution to get these family heirlooms back into action though. This was quite contrary to conventional wisdom. Construction of a Laminated Steel barrel was much simpler. As a young teen I had an old Belgian double barreled shotgun with 2 1/2" chambered blackpowder proved damascus steel barrels that were pitted like a sewer pipe throughout the bore. There were no swirling patterns on the surface of a Laminated Steel barrel. Take em for what their worth. Growing up, Dad had an old 12 gauge hammer gun, with twist steel barrels; that was his only shotgun. "Ring" testing is a joke. rc Back in the black powder shotgun days, barrels were formed around an anvil from twisted steet and forge welded together. With a Laminated Steel barrel strips of steel were simply coiled around a mandrel, and the edges were hammer welded together. His bird dogs are better than yours. Can THIS one be used? 12 gauge. damascus steel gun barrels were made in many countries, the barrel making industry in Belgium brought the art to its highest level. As regards shooting Damascus barrels, more BS; as thousands of Damascus and Twist barrel vintage double guns are used for hunting and sporting clays events every day. Then several twisted rods, usually three, were hammer welded together to form one rod with a complicated twist. Then there are 2 letters "JE" or could be "JF" and the numbers 1612. Although the barrels rang sound, the rest of the gun was worn out. I've read a couple of interesting opinions on proof testing. 86322, 12 gauge. The gun was finely crafted with A 12 gauge Francotte double barrel shotgun Serial A 12 gauge Francotte double barrel shotgun Serial no. These tubes were made by taking much of the carbon out before forming. I could shoot such a gun at a match where the risks would also include the TO, spotters and any other person within the danger zone. I've showed this gun to a number of people including a well qualified professional gunsmith. Basically, a barrel like this is build in three steps: 1: Stacks of various metal, sort of like club sandwiches, were hammer forged into ribbons, 2: These ribbons are twisted and hammer forged into a single strip, 3: This strip is twisted around a mandrel and hammer forged into a tube. Damascus Twist Barrels. Things to remember ......... Having a Damascus gun "Proofed" only means it survived a proof load .... once. Western Pennsylvania, Keystone of Freedom, CAS, Fine Wood Working, Toggle Link Rifle Tuner , SA Tuner, God, Family and Country. The billets were heated and run through pressure rollers, until they were about 1/4" square and around 16 feet long. Damascus or twist barrels are NOT soldered at the boundaries of the strips that form the barrel. Opinions varied from "all Damascus guns are bomb just ready to explode" to complete ignorance of any caution and shooting modern high-pressure shells though them. But every one of these old guns need to evaluated before shooting. Proofing a barrel means firing a cartridge in it that will develop a known pressure, greater pressure than a standard load. Damascus barrels are weaker than modern barrels and are not designed for the high gas pressures created by modern ammunition. The total number of rustings may run as high as 12 to 15, depending on the fineness of the pattern in the barrels. Loose ribs would automatically put the old gun on the wall unless it was a otherwise a valuable high grade gun. It doesn't matter if you're a beginner or an expert, as everyone can gain from learning how to use our optical equipment! It is a 12 gauge, with 2.5” chambers and 30” Damascus barrels. Powered by Invision Community. In 1806 J.Jones was granted a British patent for the production of gun barrels using iron from horse shoe nails and steel from coach springs. It is a side by side - double trigger, external hammers. Or are you content with just firing a few strong loads with the gun strapped down to a tire behind the barn, and if nothing blows up when you yank the rope, you will call it good? Every full 360 degree twist of the rod, brings around the four corners from the square and they create four ridges on the twisted rod. The plain twist barrels in the Photo Album guns probably only took 8 or 10 passes. This can be seen in the photos of salesman’s damascus barrel demonstration tubes. Decades of shooting blackpowder have introduced carbon at high enough temps/pressures to make the steel harder than it was some 135 years ago. Bill,Parker damascus barrels were reserved for guns Grade 2 and higher.Any of the Twist barrels were used on lower grade guns. Once the tube was formed, it was removed from the mandrel and the inside was reamed to final bore dimensions while the outside was shaped on a lathe. If your desire is the look and feel of one of the "old" doubles, have the gun tubed to 20 Gauge. That is why proofing includes taking critical dimensions before and after firing a proof load, to see if anything changed. They could look perfect but have hidden flaws. NONE of which are acceptable except NDI. Not a chance. April 30, 2015 in SASS Wire. Wabash Valley Rangers & McLean County Peacemakers, Buffalo Range Riders, High Desert Drifters, Rio Grande Renegades, The Twin Buttes Bunch, Cowtown, Southeast Idaho Practical Shooters. Damascus barrel making, showing the stacked ribbons and how they’re twisted I love old doubles, and a big reason why is their damascus barrels. A British invention. Parker Brothers GH Grade 12 Gauge Damascus Barrel Shotgun c. 1906 This Parker was made in 1906 according to the serial number (137486). The gunsmith and I discussed this point. Belgian gun barrel makers eventually took over nearly all of the damascus gun barrel manufacturing in the world. Gunmakers started using damascus in the 1500’s. Damascus Twist Shotgun (Belguim) - A Question or 3, shooting, hunting, ballroom dancing (really). Rust bluing damascus or twist steel barrels was a lost art for many years. Assume you ought to transfer through an FFL unless you know for SURE the rules about antiques. In fact, he was disappointed I didn't shoot it in the last match. barrels on Damascus shotguns. Would we need FFL paperwork? This gun has 30" Parker twist steel barrels choked improved modified (.025") and full (.030") with 25/8" chambers. The Damascus barrels did indeed burst, at about three times the pressure generated by a factory 12 gauge shell. DOUBLE BARREL iTHICA ANTIQUE SHOTGUN BARREL. On the rib is engraved "Laminated Steel Belgium". These were produced by twisting and welding together long strips of steel and iron (which eliminated or minimized flaws in the metal), flattening out the twisted mass into a ribbon, and then wrapping it spirally around a mandrel. Here's one of the more informative queries about such a gun: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172832&page=3&PHPSESSID=6a4d1b47d8bdf1e2b5554d2b50944c7b. Watch. They say it's a low end Henri Pieper black powder gun. then you know it will be safe. shooting, hiking, hunting, fishing, building, gun smithing, wood working. Damascus barrels CAN be safe, especially if they are carefully inspected and perhaps proof tested. When it comes to Damascus, it's a crap shoot. I'd just rub lightly with 0000 Extra Fine steel wool & oil to remove surface rust and dried oil. It won't tell you if there is a flaw in metal in the barrels. The different metals were placed in a square array, different arrays of the two metals accounted for the different swirling patterns. Would I peddle a Damascus gun here on the wire, without knowing it's history?? Old Belgian "guild guns" or "trade guns" like these are a whole deep subject, almost all of which leads you to the conclusion - they just are not worth the effort to get the gun working and keep it working. At this point, the rod was coiled around a mandrel and the edges hammer welded together to form a tube. $70.00. If anyone is interested - I can get photos in a few days. He is also of that opinion. Damascus Steel Double Barrel Shot Gun BELGIUM, 19TH CENTURY A Belgian Damascus steel double barrel shotgun. The barrel is rejected if critical dimensions change. Last time I dared checkToday, they were $800 more like $1600 and up for this double gun, because this would have to be a custom fitted set of tubes! Laminated steel barrels were also used by Parker on grade 1 and some grade 2 guns and were considered better than twist. Most likely it's going to be considered a modern gun. Parts Only. By the mid 19th century, barrels built from it were … the pressure when fired. When they were made, high quality Damascus barrels were sometimes of superior strength to the Fluid Steel barrels that were just coming into vogue. That's my bottom line. Then the barrel is examined by trained technicians with the proper tools to accurately measure critical dimensions. The strips are forge-welded as the strips are wrapped sprially around a mandrel. The distinctive swirling patterns of a Damascus barrel were formed as the lathe tool cut through the twisted, contrasting layers of iron and steel, with the steel darker than the iron. When a Damascus or Twist barrel tube bursts, the break will run along a weld joint when the bands of iron and steel ribands are hammer forged together. A well-made barrel of this type was pretty strong WHEN IT WAS MADE. Damascus barrel steel, as I said, is not weak, but it is more brittle and doesn’t have the margin of safety found in modern gun metals. Damascus twist. He used it for his guns (which included artillery pieces) in the early 1880s. OK - I know this topic has been kicked around before. Anyplace that is foolish enough to let me shoot. But there are literally hundreds of feet of welds in a Damascus barrel. Damascus barrels are weaker than modern barrels and are not designed for the high gas pressures created by modern ammunition. In fact this set of barrels was one of the last few that the good Dr. did.He explained to me that it was a good thing they were rust blued and not hot blued because hot bluing almost always results in some mechanical problems. I often shoot a Remington Model 1878 with decarbonized steel barrels. Can a Damascus twist gun be used safely in SASS?? SASS/Cowboy Action Shooting, Fly fishing, Varmint Hunting, Tea Party. So I'll keep the ring test as a part of initial examination of an old double. I wouldn't say the ring test is a joke. Still, not much value and probably unshootable even with BP loads. Interestingly, there was never a picture. What Colorado Coffinmaker said +1. During the course of the project I talked to a lot of people and did a lot of research. Looks like it came right off a Wells Fargo stage coach and as solid as any TNN. One barrel is made from fluid steel while the other is made of Damascus steel. Gunmakers started using damascus in the 1500’s. SASS Regulator. Your going to get a bunch of opinions. There is no way to tell whether or not corrosion has taken place over time on the inside of any of the welds. English ‘Best Guns’ had Stub Twist in the 1820s-40s, then both Stub Twist and an early Laminated Steel into the 1860s. That is a whole different question. There are some Damascus barrels being used safely in SASS. By the mid 19th century, barrels built from it were the absolute finest available and incredibly beautiful. Somehave been mentioned above. My 20 is as tame a a lamb with this load and will deal with KD's as surely as any 12 if I do my part. Unless this has sentimental value or is in VERY good condition, it usually costs more to be sure it's safe than the gun is worth. My email is: bhoffman2227@gmail.com. I only shoot mild loads of bp in this gun. The butt plate appears to be Bakelite (a fore runner of plastic). A Damascus barrel started out as billets welded up of alternating square rods of steel and iron. It's plenty for CAS and easy on me and gun. A Laminated Steel barrel is not quite the same as a Damascus barrel. Time left 13h 55m ... +$31.30 shipping. Even getting a manufacturing date for the gun would be tough, as would finding the real maker of the gun. I am guessing 30 inch barrel. Apparently, I was a lot smarter than Dad, as I could What is fluid steel and is it stronger than Damascus? John Brindle wrote about this in his excellent five part article in the Double Gun Journal , volume 4 issues 2 & 3, summer & fall 1993 , and volume 5 issues 1, 2 & 3. spring, summer and autumn 1994, in an article entitled BLACK AND NITRO, DAMASCUS & STEEL. I love old doubles, and a big reason why is their damascus barrels. Can't tell much without pictures, but the 'wire barrel' is very likely what is often a name for 'Damascus Twist Steel'. There is very little original finish and the st... (read more) I would not feel safe shooting any twist-steel or damascus gun, even if it did not have a century of potential oxidation between the layers. The bottom barrel is twist steel, from an Ithaca 12 gauge. $31.00. Quite often the shotgun will tell you how the barrels are made. If you knew the history, the gun was in good shape, gun had been checked and you had written description of the testing techniques applied, then and only then would I consider selling it IF IT WERE MINE. When the barrels were made, an acid etch or rust blue or browning was used to eat away the softer iron and leave the harder steel pattern showing. Jerry, Years ago I bought a BH grade damascus gun that the barrels had been rust blued. There are plenty of other old guns that can be safely shot. Does not mean it won't fail at the next firing. This should be interesting. Even safer if you would stick to BP loads only with the resulting lower pressures. And know that the ammo needs to be of the type the gun was designed for. It is so much faster, cheaper and straight forward for your prospective buyer to just buy a TTN/Cimarron 1878 copy of the Colt shotgun and be done with it. My neighbor has an "oldie" marked "Royal Gun Works Belgium" on each side of the receiver. The Damascus barrels were made by layering anything from 8 to 24 pieces of alternating strips of iron and steel and forging them together. Yep, Briley will still do sub-gauge liners. Damascus barrel steel, as I said, is not weak, but it is more brittle and doesn’t have the margin of safety found in modern gun metals. But that's just my opinion as a retired engineer with a major in material science! See all of this week's good guns now! NO WAY! I sent them to Oscar Gaddy and he refinished them. By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. I shoot 12, 16 and 20 gauges using brass hulls with BP. Fluid steel was invented by the great British engineer, Sir Joseph Whitworth. This color-case-hardened 16-bore with four season engraving is a perfect example of the craftsmanship for which the firm is world-renowned. It is unsafe to shoot smokless powder ammo in a Damascus barrel. I showed it to our match director and asked if he had any problems shooting this gun in a match and he didn't have a problem with it. Example of a Damascus barrel pattern. Iron and steel ribbons were twisted and welded together. CAS, Black Powder, SW DA Revolvers, Trap, Woodworking, Model Trains, History, Reloading. On the rib is engraved "Laminated Steel Belgium". One of the magazines like Guns and Ammo, or Outdoor Life did an article on them. My neighbor has an oldie marked Royal Gun Works Belgium on each side of the receiver. A poor quality steel barrel was formed by welding along the length and then wrapping a thin Damascus layer over the top to deceive the buyer (or gunmaker) into believing the barrel to be a higher quality one of Damascus construction. 28 inch barrels marked Von Lengerke & Detmold/U.S. I'd say the liabilities you COULD incur selling a gun for another person (especially not a SASS member, selling his gun on the Wire Classifieds) would so much outweigh what benefit the OP could get from doing such a transaction, as to be a big NO in my book. Brownells How To Pages are great research tools and will put up to bring you up to quickness fast. Up until the latter part of the 19th century, many shotguns featured so-called "Damascus" or "twist" barrels. I load with black powder, fiber wads and light load of shot.